Curse

FireWhale · Feb 11, 2009, 03:38 AM // 03:38

I understand the basics of rune/insignia use, but I find myself only using a very small amount of runes. As each armor costs a hefty sum (to me, at least), I would like to figure out what the general consensus is.

I have 5 chars. Warrior, assassin, ritualist, monk, and elementalist. I also only have prophecies and factions. Since I'm devoid of heroes, I really like healing myself since the henches aren't too great at that (far too many times I run around like a chicken without a head waiting for degen to just take me out)

1. For the (primarily) casting chars, I usually have a

head: radiant ____ of superior ___ (resulting in a 4x bonus)
armor: radiant armor of superior/major vigor
gloves: radiant gloves of superior ____ (resulting in a +3 of the primary attribute. I also have a swap of "radiant gloves of attunement" for when I think I could use more life/don't need the primary attribute).
leggings: radiant leggings of attunement
boots: radiant boots of attunement

That's just a crapton of energy. I don't know if I should be using class-specific insignias. In my opinion, the +energy usually translates into one more healing spell, so I justify my thinking like that. But since I don't really play with anyone (cept my bro), I don't really know if what I'm doing is alright. Prophecies hard mode is still a pretty easy fight, but factions hardmode is absolutely killer (unless I take a flavor of the month build).

edit: Oh yeah, I have no clue on the war or assassin.

s73ve_o · Feb 11, 2009, 03:50 AM // 03:50

alot of what you said is decent for armor for caster except for the superior primary attribute rune. usually no builds should ever have over 1 sup run (not including vigor, or i guess absorb if you use that on a war).

What Now · Feb 11, 2009, 04:57 AM // 04:57

I guess in PvE radiant with sup runes works even on monks, but in HM and other areas where you take harder hits I just have to suggest getting +armor or survivor insignias, btw never is there an actual must have need for sup runes so they usually always end up hurting you in PvE. Sure they might make nuking or such faster but when you die in 2 hits you won't be getting much done will you? :P If you do the math the +2 or +7 compared to the whole of damage added onto what you are already doing isn't much for the huge health you give up unless it's a spike and then..it's not PvE.

About sins a lot actually prefer radiant armor for more energy to pull off a chain x.x never played one myself.

But for a warrior pretty much health+armor buffs no need really for any energy and such.

Hope that made sense x.x and wasn't too general.

Avarre · Feb 11, 2009, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Radiants and superiors are generally worth avoiding.

The reasoning for radiants is that, yes, you might have the energy to cast one more spell. However, your energy regeneration rate is a constant, so having radiants has no real effect in the long run. If you were going to run out of energy without them, you'll run out with them. A better insignia is either survivor (more health is always good) or +Armor, because while health keeps you from dying a little more, armor decreases the damage you take and hence the amount you need to be healed.

An exception is farming builds where you need a specific cap of energy in order to execute a skill chain (or for assassins, I suppose). In general PvE, you're better off with defensive insignias and using energy management to balance your regen/usage.

As for the superior runes, I would advise all minor runes (although a major in your most-used attribute isn't too bad). This is simply because the gain from a minor to a superior is relatively minor compared to the 75 health loss.

Chthon · Feb 11, 2009, 05:30 AM // 05:30

1. The general consensus around here is idiotic. Don't listen to it.
2. Runes
- A. The rune for your main attribute goes in your helm so that you can switch helms when you switch builds.
  - What level of rune? Depends on the build. You'll hear a lot of people around here mindlessly regurgitating "minors only, minors only, minors only." That's wrong. Look at the benefits of the extra 1or 2 ranks -- does it cross an important breakpoint? does it add meaningfully to a heavily leveraged skill? -- and weigh that against the benefits of having more max hp. Often, but far from always, the max hp is more valuable than the extra ranks. Sometimes, the ranks are worth more than the max hp.
- B. Minor runes for off attributes that you use go on your other pieces. If you've got the cash, focus these onto gloves/boots so that you can swap gloves/boots when you swap helms. (Example: Take off Illusion helm and Domination gloves to put on Domination helm and Illuion gloves.)
- C. Highest Vigor rune you can afford.
- D. Warriors should have highest Absorption rune you can afford.
- E. Condition reduction runes are basically useless for PvE.
- F. Fill spare rune slots with vitae, unless you need max energy, in which case use attunement (see note on radiant insignias below).
3. Insignias
- A. Only use Radiant insignias if you need a high max for a skill chain. Extra max energy is not energy management. Once it's spent, it's gone. If you're running short on energy, you need to address that with skills/attributes that help you gain energy. The only use for a high max is to cast multiple skills in rapid succession (and the chain had better end with something to help regain all that energy).
- B. Armor is king in PvE. Some classes have excellent +armor insignias available to them (Centurion's, Windwalker's); and others can rely on general purpose Blessed for builds that are always enchanted or Sentry's for builds that are always stanced.
  - Don't use "+armor vs. X"; rather use "+amor." The former only protects against the specified damage type (none of which are pervasive enough to armor solely against), while the later protects against all armor-sensitive damage.
  - For Warriors, Sentry's/Blessed is best, if always stanced/enchanted; Knight's is best if not always stanced/enchanted.
  - Common forum idiocy is that Survivor is best for everything. This is wrong. Survivor is only best in PvP where foes know to use armor-ignoring damage as much as possible. PvE Monsters overwhelmingly tend towards armor-sensitive damage, and the increase in survivability against armor-sensitive damage from +10 (or more) armor is far more than that from +5-15 hp.
  - If, for some reason, no armor-boosting insignia is available for your build, use Survivors.
- C. Warriors and necros each have a special not-body-part-specific insignia. All PvE warriors should have knockdown, either from hammer skills or Brawling Headbutt, so all warriors should have one Stonefist insignia. Minion-user and well-user necros should have one Bloodstained insignia.

Icy The Mage · Feb 11, 2009, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Radiants and superiors are generally worth avoiding.

The reasoning for radiants is that, yes, you might have the energy to cast one more spell. However, your energy regeneration rate is a constant, so having radiants has no real effect in the long run. If you were going to run out of energy without them, you'll run out with them. A better insignia is either survivor (more health is always good) or +Armor, because while health keeps you from dying a little more, armor decreases the damage you take and hence the amount you need to be healed.

An exception is farming builds where you need a specific cap of energy in order to execute a skill chain (or for assassins, I suppose). In general PvE, you're better off with defensive insignias and using energy management to balance your regen/usage.

As for the superior runes, I would advise all minor runes (although a major in your most-used attribute isn't too bad). This is simply because the gain from a minor to a superior is relatively minor compared to the 75 health loss.

Perfectly explained.

tl;dr
*Go spend money on a sup vigor to replace your major
*Take off those superior runes and replace them with minors (1 major max)
*Swap your Radiant Insignias/Runes of Attunement to something more useful (+Health or +Armor Level)

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

C. Warriors and necros each have a special not-body-part-specific insignia. All PvE warriors should have knockdown, either from hammer skills or Brawling Headbutt, so all warriors should have one Stonefist insignia. Minion-user and well-user necros should have one Bloodstained insignia.

Since these insignias (bloodstained and stonefist) aren't area-specific, make sure to put them on your boots or gloves, as you can reap a higher bonus from other insignias on the legs and chest (an extra +10 health, more chance to attain a hit on the legs vs. feet to further decrease damage with +AL Insignias). Pretty much, put stonefist or bloodstained insignias on your feet and hands

qvtkc · Feb 11, 2009, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Common forum idiocy is that Survivor is best for everything. This is wrong. Survivor is only best in PvP where foes know to use armor-ignoring damage as much as possible. PvE Monsters overwhelmingly tend towards armor-sensitive damage, and the increase in survivability against armor-sensitive damage from +10 (or more) armor is far more than that from +5-15 hp.

Armor-ignoring damage isn't why survivor insignia is popular in PvP. Spikes, of any damage type, are. More health = monks have more time to react and patch you up whenever the opposing team thinks it's time to kill you.

Full survivor insignia doesn't give 5-15 hp extra, it gives 40 extra (35 on warrior and necro, if you use stonefist/bloodstained). Full +10 insignia really just gives +10.

And in PvE, it's popular for the same reason as in PvP: yes, usually monsters won't spike you, but sometimes they will do that: the HM AI definitely includes intentional spiking behavior. And especially in the later campaigns (NF/EotN), they use more and more armor ignoring damage.
Survivor insignia (and minor runes) makes you more resilient vs. degen, and, if your health is above 500, also vs. deep wound.

Of course, it's not best in every situation, but it's a solid choice and yields good performance just about everywhere. All other configurations have some glaring weakness here or there, which is why survivor is popular.

FireWhale · Feb 11, 2009, 08:30 PM // 20:30

okay, thanks everyone. I'm pretty sure I'm dumping most of my energy runes for life runes and energy insignias for armor insignias. And no, I won't have 2 sup runes on heh.

Chthon · Feb 12, 2009, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Armor-ignoring damage isn't why survivor insignia is popular in PvP. Spikes, of any damage type, are. More health = monks have more time to react and patch you up whenever the opposing team thinks it's time to kill you.

Assume you start at 500 life and 60 armor, then add either 40 life or 10 armor.

To kill you with a spike at 60 AL and 540 life, your foes must deal 540 before-armor damage before your monk reacts.

To kill you with a spike at 70 AL and 500 life, your foes must deal 595 before-armor damage before your monk reacts.

The extra armor makes you more likely to survive a spike than the extra health.

Sum: The only reason to favor life over armor is when a non-trivial portion of the incoming damage bypasses armor.

qvtkc · Feb 12, 2009, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The only reason to favor life over armor is when a non-trivial portion of the incoming damage bypasses armor.

Yes, such as in the spikes I was talking about. Other situations are generally not worth considering as they are not the ones that will kill you anyway. Also, you state:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Assume you start at 500 life and 60 armor, then add either 40 life or 10 armor.

You start with 480 health, but ok. Now why would you have 60 armor? Instead of pasting +10 on all inscription slots on your armor, just equip a shield for +8. Or have one guy bring some defensive skills ([[Save Yourselves] or something).

Lyynyyrd · Feb 12, 2009, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Caster:
5x survivor, minor runes, superior vigor

sup abs. Is shit

bungusmaximus · Feb 12, 2009, 02:58 PM // 14:58

THE reason I use survivors is because health helps against everything and armor only against armor specific damage, so if I want good, allround protection health is the way to go.

FireWhale · Feb 12, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Given my experience in pve, I don't run up to a lot of armor-ignoring damage. Maybe at most 30% of it is. That being said, I believe armor would be more vital to my survival than health. Not to mention that I am already used to having low health and surviving just fine. So while I respect the "health is better" stance, I'm going to go with armor.

I do have a question about insignias, though. Particularly which ones are good:

warrior: I believe Sentry is the way to go? I don't know if I'll always run a self-enchanting build and I don't want to rely on henches to enchant me.
assassin: While nightstalker's looks interesting, I'm thinking blessed is better, especially when I'm buffing myself or something.
monk: Blessed, obviously.
elementalist: Blessed
Ritualist: I've looked around and I don't really know what to get here. I can't really use blessed since I don't have any enchantments. I'm thinking ghost forged, since I usually slap a defensive weapon spell on myself when I'm getting hit. However, that is not what the general consensus believes so I was wondering what the usual insignia choices for rit are.

Avarre · Feb 13, 2009, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Obviously +armor is only better if you can guarantee it will take effect. This may require several armor sets and knowledge of the area.

The argument for health in PvE is somewhat related to the radiant argument. More health doesn't help prevent damage, you still lose health and have to be patched up - while effective use of +armor will directly effect how much pressure is put on your party. Typically so long as you have a respectable health total, you don't need to worry about spike damage like PvP.

Personally I used +health more simply because it was convenient and didn't require me to care about the damage type. A general rule is if you're not sure, go with +health.

qvtkc · Feb 13, 2009, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The argument for health in PvE is somewhat related to the radiant argument. More health doesn't help prevent damage, you still lose health and have to be patched up - while effective use of +armor will directly effect how much pressure is put on your party.

No, it's wrong to use the same argument as for radiant. Energy is depleted during battle, and so is health, true - but overhealing is abundant in PvE, especially if you play with heroes/henchmen/bad players. With a higher health total, the amount of overhealing is reduced, thus healing becomes more efficient, actually saving energy, unlike what radiant insignias do.

Age · Feb 13, 2009, 10:31 PM // 22:31

I have radiants on my 15k Glads as it came with it and I use radiants on my asethetics for farming.Necros are the only class that could use superior death rune.